THE HOWIE SEVERINO PODCAST

Patricia Evangelista on her first book, a surprise critical hit (Part 1)

Newly published in the United States, Patricia Evangelista's book, Some People Need Killing: A Memoir of Murder in my Country, has been appearing on prestigious lists of best books of the year. The editor of the esteemed New Yorker magazine called it a "journalistic masterpiece."

When Patricia spoke to Howie Severino, she sounded more relieved than elated, having finished a four-year struggle to write a book that failed to meet various deadlines. She talks about the weight of processing the trauma of many victims' families, the risks of naming names, and the obsessive fact-checking and due diligence required of a book about a state-sponsored drug war that shocked the world.

What was as shocking as the dead bodies, she says, was the approval of many. "The terrible became ordinary with applause," she tells Howie. The author acknowledges that she never expected her reportage to change anything and only wanted to create a record of the heinous events. Yet her book's recent acclaim shows that "this one story that I thought might not matter in the context of many things happening in the world does matter."

Please be advised that this conversation contains sensitive content and some profanity.

HOWIE: Magandang araw, podmates. Howie Severino muli na nagpapaalala na nakakatalino ang mahabang attention span.

Guest natin ngayon ay ang masasabi nating toast of the Philippine book world. Si Patricia Evangelista, author of Some People Need Killing: A Memoir of Murder in My Country, a book about the drug war during the Duterte administration, published in the US to rave reviews. She is currently in the United States. Magandang araw sa iyo, Patricia. And congratulations.

PATRICIA: Salamat at magandang araw rin, Howie.

HOWIE: Give us the lowdown on how you decided on the title. I know that it's a quote from a vigilante na kailangan mong i-translate. Bakit 'yun ang napili mong title? Some People Need Killing.

PATRICIA: Nag-interview ako ng vigilante noong 2018. It was the story about allegedly nag-a-outsource 'yung mga pulis ng pagpatay sa mga vigilante. At pangalawang interview ko na 'to with a vigilante. I can't give you the names but in the book they are Angel and Simon. So si Simon na 'to.

It was in a hotel room in a city I also can't name. But noong ini-interview ko si Simon, ano talaga siya eh true believer talaga. Naniniwala siya na bawat patayin na addict o pusher is one less person na magte-threaten ng future noong mga anak niya.

Sabi niya dalawa na 'yung napatay niya. By "patay" siya yung humugot noong trigger. Pero kasama rin siya sa pagpatay ng ibang tao. So ang sabi ko, "Hindi ba mahirap 'yung trabaho mo?" Kasi ang tawag niya talaga "tinrabaho." 'Yun 'yung verb. "It's a job. Tinrabaho ko."

So sabi niya wala naman siyang hindi willing gawin para du'n sa trabaho kasi nga importante. At naniniwala siya sa Diyos, religious siya, may anak siya, may asawa siya. Lahat-lahat.

So sabi ko, "Hindi ba mahirap 'yung trabaho?" Sabi niya, "E, para lang para daw pagiging addict. Parang droga 'yung pagpatay. Sa simula takot ka, pagkatapos okay ka na." And then, 'yun kinuwento niya sa akin 'yung paraan, 'yung mga kinaiinisan niya, lahat.

And then, sabi ko, "How do you square that with being a good person, 'yung pagpatay? Sabi mo, 'Mabuti kang tao pero pumapatay ka.'" Sabi niya, "Hindi naman ako masamang tao, ma'am. Hindi naman ako sobrang sama, may mga tao lang talaga na kailangan patayin."

It was an immediate translation in my head. I thought it was the starkest, bluntest way of putting what the narrative arc was throughout the whole war, through the logic of the story President Rodrigo Duterte was saying that some people need killing.

And it meant that the operative... the operative verb is not kill. It's need. That they deserve to die. That they earned their deaths. Parang ganu'n. So that's what the title was. There was a different working title that I will not tell you. But about two years before we published, I had always wanted this title. And finally, they allowed me. So that's it. Some People Need Killing.

And I think it's a relevant question everywhere in the world. Do some people need killing? Because everywhere people are deciding that some people deserve to die.

HOWIE: Great story. Actually, I actually bookmarked that part in the book. Ang translation mo, kasi you just said it in Filipino, "Simon said I'm really not a bad guy. I'm not all bad. Some people need killing." Simon, of course, is not his real name.

PATRICIA: Yes. You hold faith with your interviews. Yes. So I will tell you that Simon is a killer, that Simon has a gun. But I will not tell you his name. So it's a function of faith. I have to hold faith.

HOWIE: Pat, your book has been appearing lately on various prestigious lists of best books of the year. New Yorker magazine editor David Remnick has called it a journalistic masterpiece. But in a recent social media post, you said that you were staggered by these accolades as if it's all a big surprise. I guess you never expected all of these.

PATRICIA: Not at all.

HOWIE: So what were you expecting when you kind of hibernated for several years to write this book?

PATRICIA: I've been writing for 15 years. I've been a trauma journalist for a long time but this is my first book. And just getting the book together, getting through fact-checking, getting through editing, finding a voice for it, all of that was hell.

So... Ako lang ang iniisip ko launch date, October 17. Tapos na. Wala na akong magagawa. Kasi all the way to papasok na ng imprenta, nagtatanggal ako ng comma, nagmamakaawa ako. Puwede bang i-flip 'yung sentence? Just to get it done was huge. So I didn't give myself room to think ano mangyayari pagkatapos. Other than tapos na siya.

HOWIE: Nagbabangayan ba kayo ng editor?

PATRICIA: Ay sobra.

HOWIE: At saka 'yung Americano 'yung editor mo riyan?

PATRICIA: Yes. Magaling siya. Sobrang galing niya. And mahaba ang relationship mo with an editor lalo na if it's someone like me na mabagal. Ang pinirmahan ko na kontrata sa Random House was one year. I signed mid-2019. So it's been four.

HOWIE: One year. Okay.

PATRICIA: So ang dami kong deadline na lumipad lang. So may bangayan, may major disagreements on like minsan sasabihin niya, "Pat, kailangan matigas 'yung sentence dito. You need a diamond hard sentence here that says exactly what you mean."

I go but I don't have the material for this. In that I do not dare. So sasabihin niya, "Hanapin mo 'yung bayag mo." 'Di ba? So sasabihin ko, "Leave me alone for a week. I'll think about it."

And for this particular instance, I disappeared for two weeks and I came back with two chapters. Hindi ko kaya 'yung isang sentence pero kaya ko 'yung dalawang chapter. So I think that was Chapter 7 and 8 doon sa libro. So grabe 'yung bangayan.

It's teamwork, e. Kasi mas nakikita niya 'yung libro more than me. Kasi nandu'n ako sa... Ang liblib ko, e, roon sa libro. Pero siya nakikita na 'yung big picture.

HOWIE: Kasi you know the book is over 400 pages. So 'yung original drafts ba mas mahaba pa riyan?

PATRICIA: Yes and no. In that 'yung original drafts, mas marami 'yung material tungkol sa giyera pero mas kaunti 'yung personal. And note it's really not 400 pages, 80 pages of that endnotes 'yan.

You know the fact checking the notes, the questions, the notes on interpretation, translation. 'Yung mga ganu'ng bagay. Hindi ko naman kasi intensyon na first person 'yung libro, e. Dapat third person 'yan. The same way I've written for the last, for the years before this.

Hindi ako willing i-hazard 'yung sarili ko, e, na humarap doon. Kaya lang contractually, I was obligated to do that. Kasi for a story this grim, the people reading needs someone to hold their hand through the book. It just had to happen to be me.

HOWIE: I wanna ask you about that. Kasi nga the book is based on your reporting for Rappler, which I also read, which is pretty hard notes. It's classic reportage. You're an observer and generally not part of the story.

But in this book, you're very much a part of the story. In fact, much of it is not even about the drug war. 'Yung unang bahagi dito, it's really autobiographical. I mean, you even start talking about sisters you never met.

So why start with yourself? Were you totally comfortable with that?

PATRICIA: Absolutely not. The first draft of the book did not have me in it. When I proposed the book, it was in first person. Pero I thought it would be the preface. And then I could write 60, 70 thousand words the way I always do.

It went back to me and they said, "You have to be there kasi may pinanggagalingan." So I come from a particular generation, the generation after the revolution of 1986. And I come from a particular perspective in the faith that human rights, free speech, all of that, it's not even something you fight for. It's a given. It's something you were born with.

So it was a perspective I had to establish to demonstrate the turn towards, I guess, a more autocratic sort of faith in a higher leader. I did this kicking and screaming for the first two years. I really, really refused.

It took me two years to find my voice. When I found it, I thought, "Ha! Puwede." I guess madali kasi magtago behind the professional voice of a journalist. But when you're told you don't have to or that you shouldn't, then it's very freeing.

Because then, you can explain why you think this way. You can break down language to show what it means to you and what it means to other people. And for me, although it took me a while to understand it, choosing to speak like a detached third person was a failure of nerve. I'm not a detached third-person. I wrote this both as a journalist and as a citizen. So it was necessary, I think, near the end to accept that this is a personal accountability as well.

HOWIE: Of course. Kasi producing a book like this takes a great deal of conviction, which makes your autobiographical part intriguing. Kasi you mentioned that when you were in college, you didn't really have any causes. So I mean, despite the fact that you were at UP, which is known for activism and politics and all of that.

Pero sumali ka sa college debate team mo because you wanted to pretend you had causes. You had to defend issues and argue, etcetera. But inamin mo roon na hindi ka naman talaga advocate, e. So when was the turning point? The nerve, the steel that would enable you eventually to become a trauma journalist and produce a book like this.

PATRICIA: Either I was in college or just leaving college. I think it was in my senior year when two young women disappeared from UP, Sherlyn Cadapan and Karen Empeño.

I didn't understand what happened. I didn't, couldn't believe that this sort of thing could happen to people who went to my own university, who went to my same college, who just disappeared. It was a term I couldn't reckon with. Disappear.

So I didn't know that the Arroyo government was fighting a different sort of war. And I met the mothers, I went to the court, I interviewed the man they called the Butcher, Jovito Palparan. And I spent many years following this story.

I think that was my turning point. The understanding that my value is on the field. Because I'm not particularly trained for anything. I'm a comms major. But I like stories, I understand stories for as long as I know enough. And my particular contribution is to see things, to go places. I'm not an academic. I think that was my turning point.

HOWIE: At the same time, journalism is in your blood. As you revealed in those early chapters. Kasi 'yung lolo mo, your grandfather si Mario Chanco was a prominent journalist for a long time. In fact, I mentioned to you privately that he was also a friend of my father. I actually met him. Of course, when I was much younger. A very jolly fellow.

PATRICIA: Delightful man.

HOWIE: Yeah. And then he fits the stereotype of the newspaper man na very, you know, kind of glib. And he knows everybody. But you have a big reveal about him towards the end of this autobiographical part where you discovered later on, when you were already a journalist yourself, a principal journalist that he had signed a manifesto in 1986 supporting the first president, Marcos when many artists and writers and activists were fighting Marcos. The tone of it was you were a bit disillusioned. Why was that important to write about?

PATRICIA: I think I was looking at it in terms of complicity na gaano kalaki 'yung accountability natin sa bayan. And I also was trying to reckon with his choices kasi nagulantang din ako. In the end, what I understood was, that my grandfather like many other people during the Duterte regime, right before the regime was reckoning with his own choices.

He was a family man. And he made choices that he believed were best for him and best for his family. This is a book about people who make choices, that they believe at that moment is best for them and best for their families.

I'm not in a position to judge any of that. But I came to my own reckoning a very long time ago to what I'm supposed to do and where I'm supposed to stand. So I felt it was necessary to make that part of the book because choices are part of a book. Where we come from, who we are, are part of the book.

And what was interesting about my grandfather was in the context of my having to explain the sweep of history for the Philippines. Any book about the Philippines published elsewhere becomes an explainer about the Philippines. It doesn't matter what you write about. And in this case, my grandfather was something of a historian himself.

So I thought, to look at that history through his lens would be an interesting thing. But to deny his place in that history would also be a failure on my part. So I told the whole story.

HOWIE: At the same time, inamin mo na, because he chose to support the Marcos regime, nakapaghanapbuhay siya and he was able to support his family. And you, of course you benefited from privileges emanating from that.

PATRICIA: I don't know if his choices provided my privileges now. It might have or it might have been because my grandmother was a phenomenal businesswoman. So it could be one or the other. But it's hard to stand from a place of history and judge your own family. So for me, it was just the telling of a story.

HOWIE: In the book, it's very brave because you named names, not just the victims and their families but police chiefs, political leaders, barangay captains quite clear they were complicit in a lot of the crimes you were writing about.

And in particular, of course, President Duterte came under a very harsh light. And for many readers, your book will define his presidency. So have you heard from any of these people you named?

PATRICIA: No.

HOWIE: No.

PATRICIA: What I did in the months before publication was I conducted due diligence. In that, I sent out letters to everyone who was accused in the book, people I had never interviewed before. If I had an interview on file and there was nothing different, I was going to say I didn't need the interview.

But in most cases, every time there was a likely accusation of possible criminal wrongdoing, I sent a letter. And we were very thorough. I worked with a team. For example, if I was writing to a senator, I would send it by email, by a courier, and then contact the office itself.

So it was the same all the way to former President Rodrigo Duterte. And it's in the book. It's in the end notes of the book explaining the process by which I did it, as well as the questions that I sent.

While he did or his people did acknowledge the request for interview and while they did ask for questions, and those questions were sent, I was told that it could not fit in the former president's schedule. So I was satisfied at least that there was a response.

HOWIE: And then you also wrote, for example, si Col. Robert Domingo. You called him your friend, Domingo. And then you interviewed a vigilante who implicated him. Is he still your friend?

PATRICIA: Again, the end notes are interesting. He was part of my due diligence. I had gone through the same process, sent the same letters, went through a number of offices. And finally, I messaged him. I think it might have been via Viber. And he responded. He said he's sorry that he cannot do the interview.

However, he considers me his friend. He said, God bless. So I said, I will keep that on the record. So I said, thank you. So I suspect we either have a very complicated relationship or a very simple relationship. I'm not sure which it is.

HOWIE: There's a part there when you enter his office. Naka-frame yung article mo about him. So he was quite proud of it.

PATRICIA: He was pleased by it. So I'm glad for that.

HOWIE: So since the book came out, how has your life changed?

PATRICIA: I don't quite know actually because the book was just published. I am told this is part of the process, like you go on a bit of a tour, you speak in places, you talk about the book. I do interviews with people like yourself and in other places.

It's changed because I like locking the door and staying inside the room. I'm an introvert. So I know how to do the job but this was never the job. My job was to ask questions, not to answer them. So all of these is very strange for me.

And the staggering shock of it is that this one story that I thought might not matter in the context of many things happening in the world right now, does matter. And I'm glad for it. And I'm a part of the making of this story or at least the writing of this story, that when I can breathe occasionally, I think about that. And I'm glad. I do hope though that it's honored the stories of other people. I don't know yet. The books are still getting to people who should be reading them.

HOWIE: So have you heard from any of the families portrayed, 'yung mga survivor ng mga biktima?

PATRICIA: The book is in process of getting to them kasi ang hirap nga ipadala. And I wanted it to be personal. So it had to come from here. And I had to sign them and dedicate them. So it's on its way. There are people in the book who have contacted me. And it's funny. Some of it. Thorough naman kasi 'yung fact check.

So sometimes if I thought there was a complicated thing, then I would go back to them and read an actual line. Mayroong tao sa libro, bumoto siya kay Pangulong Duterte nu'ng 2016. Grabe 'yung paniniwala niya. And then, bumaligtad siya eventually. Pero may isang linya, e.

Kasi nagsu-swing kami. Tagalog, English. Ano 'to Zoom conversations, matagal. Paulit-ulit kami. Pero may sinabi siya na, "Putang inang gagong mga Pilipino." Something like that. Or, "Putang inang bobo." Parang ganu'n.

So nu'ng sinulat ko 'yung linya, malamang hindi ko puwedeng sabihin "Putang inang bobo." So ang translation ko, "Fucking idiots." Something like that. Nu'ng tinawagan ko, sabi ko, "Sigurado ka ba na gusto mong sabihin 'yan?" Sabi niya, sigurado siya sa sinabi niya pero mali 'yung translation ko. Fucking morons, not fucking idiots.

So umabot na 'yung libro sa kaniya. He's one of the few na umabot na. And then, pinicture-an niya 'yung page na 'yun tapos nag-comment siya. Kinuwento niya na tumawag ako about a year ago, "Sigurado ka ba riyan?" Sabi niya, "Puta! Sigurado ako riyan." So happy siya. Binilugan pa niya.

HOWIE: Okay. Well, he's one of the characters in the book...

PATRICIA: Yes.

HOWIE: At the end na nagbago? 'Yung mga dating Duterte supporters, they think differently now. Let's put it that way. Why was it important to profile these people who had a change of heart or maybe saw the light, so to speak? Bakit mo isinama 'yung part na 'yun?

PATRICIA: Well, in the same way that it was important that it was important to, so to speak, to humanize the people we lost. 'Yun naman ang trabaho namin sa field, e. 'Pag may namatay, look at the human being who's ground, what he was, who he was, 'di ba?

Tao 'yan, hindi bangkay. Tao. It's the same logic with the people who voted for President Duterte, who are so easily demonized as well. There's statistics na lahat sila dahil sa misinformation, lahat sila dahil sa bumoto kay Pangulong Duterte, dahil hindi naintindihan ang karapatng pantao, it's far more complicated than that.

People are very, very complex. So I wanted to talk to them. I wanted to understand where they stood, their background, and what informed the decision-making. It just so happened that quite a lot of people who would have voted for, who did vote for Rodrigo Duterte, who still believe in him, will not talk to me.

It was a practical thing as well. But people who have turned, they're willing to talk. Because for them, it's an act of contrition na 'yung pagkuwento nila nu'ng istorya, paraan nila 'yun na parang confession.

And I very much am grateful for the privilege of listening to them. And I think there was no way I could have written the book without hearing what they wanted to say because it helped me understand the grand mythology, the story that is Rodrigo Duterte.

HOWIE: Speaking of which, kasi I also covered the drug war for our channels, for our show, I-Witness. I did several docus and what was just as shocking to me, aside from the dead bodies, I mean, all of us in journalism, we've seen a lot of dead bodies. Pero what was almost as traumatizing to me was 'yung approval of a lot of people that this was happening.

But did that also shock you? 'Di ba, we go into this job thinking na if you expose wrongdoing, somehow, matutuwid 'yung wrong, 'di ba? You'll have an effect on public opinion, and somehow maybe the killing will stop.

We want to make an impact, 'no? But when it actually got worse, or the killing continued, even after the exposés were being done, and not just by local journalists like us but ang daming dumating sa Pilipinas na mga journalism superstar, it got some foreign journalists, Pulitzer Prizes pa, 'di ba?

Parang nakita mo na parang balewala itong ginagawa natin. I mean, it's not really changing anybody's minds, it's not really changing policy, it's not... I mean, you know, it's not stopping the killing?

PATRICIA: I didn't walk into the war naman thinking  na 'pag nagsulat ako, may magbabago. Kasi like you I've done this a long time. So, when I was much younger, I thought, 'Pag sinulat ko, aba, mag-iiba." Baka ang problema hindi alam ng mga tao ang nangyayari.

And then later on, I thought, maybe I'm not doing this story right, maybe I should have written it better or use a new medium. I thought it was on me as well. Now that I'm older, I've learned to negotiate my expectations. I will work very hard to tell a compelling story, but I have no expectation it's going to change policy or people's minds.

My only expectation is to keep a record. A good one. I hope a useful one for the future if it's necessary. And as to your question of was it shocking? The general approval? Of course, as it was to you, as it was to many of us who were journalists at the time where it was not very hard to tell these stories.

Kasi hindi naman bago 'yung mga patayan. Dumaan tayong Maguindanao massacre, dumaan tayo sa Mamasapano, dumaan tayo sa Tacloban, sa Compostela. Hindi tayo baguhan. Tayong dalawa, tayong lahat na mamamahayag sa Pilipinas, hindi tayo baguhan sa krisis at trahedya.

And bago is kasi nu'ng kino-cover natin 'yung mga bagay na 'yun, ang sasabihin ng mga tao, "What a terrible thing." Di ba. What can we do to change it? It doesn't mean things change, but there's a concession for everyone that is a terrible thing.

In with the beginning of the drug war, the terrible became ordinary with applause. That was the change, that was what people call a moral injury. Suddenly the world turned upside down, but you're standing in the same place. I think that was what was happening to a lot of us on the field. 'Yung gulat na, "Oh, ni-report ko na." "Ay maganda daw 'yung nangyari. Dapat marami pang mamatay." So you had to settle yourself into the belief that a lot of people stand in a very different place.

HOWIE: 'Yan ang part 1 ng aming kuwentuhan ni Patricia Evangelista. Bukas ang part 2. Abangan.