THE HOWIE SEVERINO PODCAST

When Leila de Lima was taken hostage in prison

Note: This is part 2 of a two-part series. Read part 1 here.

Three months after being released on bail, former senator and prisoner of conscience Leila de Lima describes in graphic and terrifying detail the day in prison when she was held captive by an Abu Sayyaf inmate known for beheading hostages.

She reveals that after the hostage taker was shot dead and she was rescued, she received a concerned call from President Marcos, an early sign that his alliance with the Dutertes could be cracking. That was her scariest moment, she says, but not among her darkest, which were the times she wasn't allowed a furlough from jail to attend the wakes of close friends, including PNoy.

For the alleged crimes of former President Rodrigo Duterte, she says the only recourse is the International Criminal Court because there is a "clear demonstration of the unwillingness and inability" of the Philippine justice system to investigate.

"That's one of the reasons why nagwawala na si Duterte. Out na ang antagonism niya kay President Marcos because I think he suspects the BBM administration is really cooperating with the ICC." Meanwhile, as she vows to assist the ICC gather evidence, de Lima is back to teaching law and spending time with her aged mother, who was never told by her protective family what her famous daughter went through.

The Howie Severino Podcast reached out to former President Rodrigo Duterte’s camp. As of posting, there is no comment yet from his office.

HOWIE: Welcome back, pod mates. Here's the continuation of my conversation with former senator Leila de Lima.

I want to ask also what you think was your darkest time or moment in prison?

DE LIMA: There is no particular darkest time but there were several really where I felt deep sadness. And that's when you know, loved ones and allies and friends would leave the world. For example, the death of my only sister-in-law, the death of PNoy, of Sec. Dinky, of Sec. Mon Jimenez. So I felt really deep sadness. It was revolting to me that I would not be able to pay my last respects to them.

And another moment of sadness is when I was not allowed to attend the graduation ceremony of my son, Vincent who eventually became a lawyer. The courts did not allow me to attend the graduation of my son. That was painful to me.

HOWIE: Kasi I recall that other inmates even fellow senators were allowed to be given that privilege. They were allowed to attend certain events outside of prison before returning to jail. But ikaw, hindi ka pinayagan at all except for that visit to your mom, which you mentioned earlier.

DE LIMA: Visit to my mom and occasional medical furloughs for 24 hours or 48 hours because I made sure that I would undergo annual medical examination, checkup, even when I was in jail. So the court would allow me for either 24 hours or 48 hours for said purpose. But other than that, I was not allowed. Oh, the thanksgiving of my son, I was allowed I think four hours, three to four hours to attend that when he passed the Bar.

HOWIE: Well, congratulations to him. In October 2022, hinostage kayo ng mga inmate who belong to the Abu Sayyaf. This is already during the Marcos administration. You didn't mention that as one of your darkest times.

DE LIMA: Oh, I just forgot about it. It's really one of my darkest times. Scariest. Scariest. Yes.

HOWIE: Scariest.

DE LIMA: Yes. It's the scariest. Because I wouldn't imagine that would happen to me, that would happen in such facility as the PNP Custodial Center. And it was so harrowing. It was the scariest moment of my life because I thought that was the end of me, because the hostage taker was dead serious. He was suicidal. So he wanted to take
me with him when he saw that it was becoming desperate already because he saw that there were snipers about to take him down.

So he said, "You better come with me. You will die also, ma'am." So he kept on saying that. "You will die also." Although he would still call me ma'am when we were exchanging talks while I was being held hostage.

HOWIE: Ano 'yung weapon niya?

DE LIMA: It was an improvised knife. It never penetrated because it was a knife. So he constantly pressed it on my chest the whole time. And then, minsan nga talagang maano ang pagkaka-press niya. So I would cry, "Ang sakit! 'Wag naman ganyan!" So he would adjust it a little and then after a while, ganu'n na naman.

He would press it hard. It really caused trauma, chest trauma for several days. It was painful. My chest and even my back. So I had to be confined in the hospital for several days after that incident.

HOWIE: While you were his hostage, you were blindfolded? And tied.

DE LIMA: Yes. Blindfolded, hand-tied dito sa likod. And my feet were also tied all the time. So I could just hear what he was saying and what was happening. I could hear the negotiator when he came. The negotiator, Director Pespes, who was then the director of the Headquarters Support Service. And I was fortunate to have him as the negotiator because he thought fast, he did his part. And he was the one who shot the hostage taker when he saw that my life was at serious risk.

HOWIE: So that's how it ended. I recall from a previous conversation we had, humingi siya ng tubig. And then, 'habang inaabot 'yung tubig sa kaniya ng negotiator na 'to, bumunot na ng baril 'yung police negotiator and shot him.

DE LIMA: Yes. Kasi ano na, e... Hindi kasi pinagbigyan o pinagbibigyan 'yung mga hiling. The request, the demands of the hostage taker were C-130 plane, military plane where he could be brought to Sulu. He also asked for a Hummer getaway vehicle. And he also wanted media. He wanted to talk to media.

The negotiator, Director Pespes, was bidding for time. You know, I knew that they would not, of course, accede to his demands. He was saying that "That's not within my authority. Titingnan ko lang kung anong magagawa ko kung kaya namin 'yan. "

And even when he was telling me, the hostage taker, to demand for those, I was telling him, "I am in no position to ask for those because I'm also a detainee and I'm no longer in government. How could I, how could I ask for those things? And even, in fact, I'm an opposition member." So hindi naman naniniwala 'yung hostage taker. "Ma'am, kaya n'yo 'yan. Mayroon pa ho kayong impluwensya." Sabi ko, "Hindi."

So even the hostage negotiator was saying that. But when he sensed that those demands are not being met, that's when he said, "Oras na, ma'am. Mamamatay na tayo." And I got so scared when he started praying Islamic in Arabic. Ah sabi ko, "Naku, seryoso talaga 'to na mamamatay at papatayin din ako."

I think he's asking for forgiveness already from Allah or saying goodbye already. So I started praying na rin quietly while I was blindfolded. And I was saying, "Lord, bahala na po kayo sa pamilya ko. Bahala na po kayo sa akin. Pero sana, Lord..." And that was my request is that "Sana po sandali lang. Kung saksaksakin niya ako, one shot lang para I don't suffer anymore, that there would be no bleeding to death or slow death." So that was my request.

And then suddenly, when he stopped praying, he suddenly asked for water. Well, he's probably, uh, thirsty. But I was told later that water, asking for water and taking it was part of the ritual. Saying goodbye ritual.

So when I told him, because I was blindfolded and hand-tied, I said, "Gusto ko po ng tubig, ma'am." Sabi ko, "Diyan." Gumanoon ako because my dispenser, my water dispenser was at my right side. So he said, "No, hindi po. Dapat po siya ang kumuha ng water para sa akin." Referring to Director Pespes.

So I said, "Director, gusto raw po niya ng tubig." But after saying that, I started praying again. So I didn't know anymore what was happening. The next thing I knew, there were shots.

So later, you know, it was close-range shot. It was on my right side because hostage taker was in front of me with his knife, pressed on my chest, constantly pressed on my chest. And according to the director, when he saw that my life was in serious danger, he was determined already to take him down.

But he was just waiting for the right timing. So that's the right timing when, when the hostage taker asked for water. But then, according to Director Pespes, I also wanted to make sure about two things. First, whether mayroon pang ibang dala-dalang armas 'yung hostage taker. Like for example, a hand grenade. And because that would be, you know, dangerous.

He could not just shoot the hostage taker kung mayroon siyang granada. And also he wanted to make sure daw na hindi ako magalaw, malikot. Kasi kung malikot ako, then, it's also risky to just shoot the hostage taker. Baka kasi ako ang matamaan.

So when he was nearing the hostage taker, and with a glass of water daw, he saw na wala namang hand grenade. At nakita raw niya ako, I was so still. He thought I was in shock. But I was actually praying. So that's the right time to shoot the guy.

So nu'ng inaabot na raw niya 'yung water and medyo umangat na 'yung knife sa chest ko, that's when he shot him four times. It was so loud. Wala nga siyang one meter away from me, I think. Sa right side ko lang nu'ng inaabot niya 'yung water sa hostage taker. So I never saw the actual shooting, I never saw how the hostage taker fell down because I was blindfolded.

So nilabas kaagad ako noon nu'ng pagkatapos ng binaril 'yung hostage taker, and I just saw my shorts because I was in shorts and my legs covered with blood. So that's all I saw. And then, I was taken out. I was brought to the Custodial Office where they immediately checked me out kung, you know, my blood pressure, it shoot up. I think it became 170 over something. So nag-shoot up and then mayroon silang portable ECG coming from the PNP, the PNP General Hospital. So they checked the condition of my heart. It was okay.

So it was harrowing because I really thought it was my end.

But you know, before that, before the shooting, I was also talking to God. And I said, "Lord, bakit naman ganito? Nag-sakripisyo ako anim na taon, you know, here. And then, ganu'n lang? That is how I would end? All those sacrifices put to naught? Mamamatay lang pala ako ng ganito under the circumstances?" So that was what was in my mind and pleading with God.

But, you know, the whole time, Howie, because in situations like that, it's either the fear would overwhelm you or you overwhelm fear. You know, you fight it off. And that's what I did. I fought off my fear by appearing to be not afraid. I was answering back.

Sinasagot-sagot ko siya, 'yung hostage taker. Like, for example, when he said, "Ma'am, nasaan 'yung cellphone n'yo dahil may tatawagan ako. May mga tatawagan ako." And then I said, "Wala akong cellphone." And then he said, "Imposible. Papatayin kita, ma'am, kung hindi mo ilabas ang cellphone."

Sabi ko, "Kahit patayin mo ko, wala kang makikita riyan. Kahit maghapon kang maghalungkat diyan sa mga thing ko, wala kang makikita."
So that's how I was talking to him to show to him that I was not scared. And but that's actually my way of fighting off tremendous fear. Because, you know, if fear would overwhelm you, then you would not be able to think good. And you will, you know, you might just passed out. So I was fighting fear by doing that, by answering back to my hostage taker.

HOWIE:Yeah. You were still rational and able to reason. So you had to have a certain calmness at that time despite that situation. A lot of people would have been panicking. Sabi n'yo nga, baka maraming tao nahimatay na sa takot, sa nerbiyos, or even maybe just succumbed at that time because of that. So wow, what a story. Thank you for sharing. And I hope you don't mind that I asked you to recall such a traumatic episode.

DE LIMA: No. Actually, when I was at the PNP General Hospital, a group of psychologists or psychiatrists checked out on me and they were saying, "Ma'am, okay. We don't see anything, we don't see any trauma in you. You were able to handle it well. But you see, Ma'am, one way of really getting out of that, of that memory is to frequently talk about it, talk about the experience." And that's what I did.

Anyone who would ask me, I would narrate the story. You know, even President Marcos when he called. He called. President Bongbong called through the phone.

HOWIE: He called you right after the incident when you're already in the hospital?

DE LIMA: Yeah, about one or two hours. When I was at the Custodial Office before I was brought to the hospital, Secretary Abalos visited me and he said, "Ma'am, the President wants to talk to you through my phone." So I said, "Yes, of course."

So nangumusta siya. Pinakuwento rin niya sa akin. Although not really detailed. So he was shocked because he thought it was just an attempt, a hostage-taking attempt. He said, "You were really taken hostage." "Yes, sir."

And then, lalo siyang na-shock nu'ng kinuwento ko na I was blindfolded, I was hand-tied and feet-tied.

So that's the advice of the psychiatrist, just keep on narrating it to anyone who would want to hear that story. It's part of your recovery from the trauma. Although they said "Hindi ka halata na you went through that ordeal."

HOWIE: So I just wanted to ask about this call from President Marcos. So he called to show his concern. Ganu'n ba 'yun? Or to ask you?

DE LIMA: Yes. Yes, he was really very concerned. That something like that would happen to somebody like me, that I'm supposed to be a high-profile detainee there. And in fact, he offered to transfer me to another.

He said that, "If you want, we can transfer you to a safer place because we want you safe and secure. But it's your decision. If you want to stay, it's okay. We will just beef up your security." So my decision was that I better stay here because I'm familiar already with the environment here and with the people here.

And actually, one of the reasons also is I didn't want to leave my cats. I could not just bring those cats to another detention facility. Baka bawal sa another detention facility. So true enough, when I decided to just stay put, they reinforced my security. They put more guards, they put more CCTVs. And there were more restrictions actually when it comes to, when it came to visits. So that's how he was able to help. The president.

HOWIE: Well, that's interesting that he would call you out of concern and even offer more protection or even more comfortable, let's put it this way, lodgings. Because, of course, you're the mortal enemy of his predecessor and even his ally, his then, his ally.

DE LIMA: They were still allies.

HOWIE: Yeah, they were still allies. Of course, former president Duterte's daughter, Sara is the vice president. So they were still an alliance. Because he didn't have to call you, 'di ba? He didn't have to call you. I mean, Secretary Abalos could have just relayed the message na, "Uy, the president is..."

DE LIMA: Yes, I appreciated it, of course. I appreciated the concern. I was somewhat touched also, you know, getting out of his way. In fact, Secretary Abalos was saying that the president actually wanted to be there, wanted to go there at the Custodial. But something came up, so they settled for just conversations via mobile phone. So I appreciated it.

HOWIE: Okay. Noong pinalaya kayo noong November last year, you were released on bail for one of your cases. Sabi n'yo nga na-acquit na kayo roon sa dalawang kaso. Nagpasalamat kayo kay Pangulong Marcos, for respecting the rule of law and the independence of the judiciary. So you don't think that you were released also for political reasons?

DE LIMA: I don't really think that. Well, I must admit that the posturing of the BBM government with respect to my case, they'd rather not touch or meddle with the case. Because unlike before, I know, I have information, I have sources telling me that really President Duterte through Senator Bong Go would influence certain judges.

And I think that's one of the reasons why most of the judges inhibited themselves from the case. Either they opted for early retirement or inhibited themselves just to avoid the pressure, just to avoid the cases.

Now, with President Marcos, there was no such effort to influence the courts to rule against me. But I could feel that maybe they know that I deserve to be released. That I don't deserve to be in jail. So whether or not they did something, I don't know. To hasten or to facilitate my release, I really don't know.

But what one thing is sure. Since the judge was left on his own volition to decide the case on the merits, it was easier for him to do so with Duterte out and then the President not meddling in a negative way. So it was easier for the judge because that was not possible when Duterte was still the President. What judge would go against his will to keep me and let me rot in jail? That's what he said, right? That he would want me rot in jail.

So now that Duterte was not there and President Bongbong did not meddle, then it was definitely easier. The independence of the judiciary was upheld and respected and so was the rule of law. And the truth came out.

HOWIE: Okay, but by not meddling and then allowing the judiciary to make a decision, I guess based on the merits of the case, that's being interpreted by many, of course, as you know, in a political way. Parang that's one of the signs daw of this crack in the alliance.

Kasi kung talagang gusto ng administration na patibayin itong alliance or ipagpatuloy itong alliance, then they would have kept you in jail. They could have found a way to keep you in jail. But now you're free and you're now being cited as a reason why this alliance is cracking up.

Kasi nga, you were jailed during the Duterte administration which didn't like you. And now you're saying that after this hostage situation, President Marcos reached out and expressed his concern and even made this offer of moving you to another facility and then, chose not to meddle. Whereas before, sabi n'yo nga, the previous administration was meddling. So hindi nag-meddle, napalaya kayo. So ano nga, nagkakaroon ng mas malaking implication ito, as you know, beyond your own case.

DE LIMA: Yeah. I would not deny the fact that the cracks then, ngayon, ano na, all out na, all out hostility na, antagonism. It seems unredeemable. You know, the division between them. But back then, the cracks were showing already.

In last quarter of last year, the cracks were showing already. That was a factor. I will not deny that. You know, the judge could see that Duterte would have no influence already. And he could see that this government is not bent on keeping me in jail. Maybe he saw it through.

There was no express pronouncement, explicit pronouncement from anyone in government, especially the president, that he would want me released. Because their statement was just "The case is now with the courts." Because you know, I had information also that every time the president was abroad for official trips, my case would always be mentioned on the sidelines of his meeting with the heads of state and other high officials of other foreign governments.

But his answer would always be, according to my sources, "The case is now with the courts. Let the court decide it." So while there was no explicit pronouncement about I want him released, I think the courts got the point. You know, do what is right. Do it. Decide on the basis of merit. And we will not make your life difficult. So there was an indirect message to the court or to the judge. I would not deny that.

HOWIE: Nabanggit n'yo this international lobbying on your behalf because you were in prison for nearly seven years and became known as one of the most prominent prisoners of conscience in the world. You became famous for that. And then, nu'ng ni-release ka late last year, you said that one of your priorities now as a free person is accountability. Not just for what happened to you, but for all the killings that happened during the Duterte administration. And you were going to assist the International Criminal Court, 'yung ICC. But this was back in November.

So now that you're in the real world, you're dealing with having to make a living and running a household and taking care of your cats, I mean, ganu'n pa rin ba 'yung inyong priority and perspective? 'Yun pa rin ang gusto n'yong gawin? Using your prominence and stature and whatever platform you have internationally to seek accountability through the ICC?

DE LIMA: Ganu'n pa rin, Howie. Accountability for the killings, the thousands of killings under that sham war on drugs. And at the same time, accountability for what they did to me. The persecution, the oppression. They deprived me of prime years of my life. Almost seven years is almost seven years. It's no joke. I could have done a lot. I could have performed fully my functions and duties as then senator.

But it became so limited because I could only file bills and resolutions and I could not participate in deliberations and debates. I could not cast my vote on important legislative measures. So pareho. I've been monitoring of course very closely the developments of the ICC and I could see that they're wrapping up already their preliminary investigation and therefore, the issuance of the warrant of arrest is not far-fetched.

The issuance of the warrant of arrest anytime would be a reality. So 'yan pa rin. Because they did this to me because of that core advocacy of mine, because I had the gall to have him investigated in 2009 when I was with the CHR. I had him investigated for the DDS killings in 2016 when he started this killings, this Tokhang killings.

Then, I had him investigated also by the Senate by filing that resolution barely 13 days after his assumption to power. So this is the root of my oppression, my fighting in behalf of the helpless, powerless, voiceless victims of the drug war killings.

So how could I not stop pursuing that? Now that I am free, I would really want Mr. Duterte and his cohorts held accountable by the ICC which has the expertise and the determination, the firm determination to do its job, something that is not being done under any domestic mechanism of ours.

HOWIE: I wanted to ask you that, Attorney. Because we were previously talking about your faith in the judicial system and that's why you returned home to face the music. Nakulong kayo at you followed the rules and then, now you're saying you were released because the judicial system worked in your case.

Nagkaroon ng respect for rule of law, you praised the Marcos administration for that. So 'yun ang gusto kong maintindihan dito. Because the ICC is supposed to step in when there's the failure of the state to deliver justice. But now that you think that the judiciary is showing some independence, why rely now on the ICC when you've shown so much faith in our judicial system?

DE LIMA: There may be an apparent inconsistency, but there is no real inconsistency with such a position, Howie. Why? Because yes, the ICC under the complementary rule can intervene if the state is unable or unwilling genuinely to do an investigation.

So it's more of a case-to-case basis. We're talking here about the accountability of Mr. Duterte and the likes of Senator Bato Dela Rosa, the chief enforcer of the Tokhang killings. Now, is there any domestic body, court, officer, any domestic mechanism who's now running after them?

They're not even investigated by any investigative body like the NBI, PNP, or whatever. The DOJ has also not filed any case against Mr. Duterte and Senator Bato. So that is a clear demonstration of unwillingness and inability to investigate these officials with the highest responsibility for the killings. So ICC is well within its rights, is well within its mandate to meddle or to intervene. So there's no real inconsistency in that, Howie.

HOWIE: Okay. Sabi n'yo nga, an arrest warrant or arrest warrants kasi more than one ang kakasuhan are forthcoming kasi nga 'yung ICC is already wrapping up its investigation according to your own sources. But what is the likelihood of an actual arrest? Kasi iba 'yung warrant to serving the arrest warrant. That will require, of course, the cooperation of the Philippine government unless former President Duterte leaves the Philippines and goes to another country where the warrant of arrest can be served, which is also unlikely.

So what is the likelihood that na maaaresto siya talaga? And how does the current Marcos-Duterte feud affect the chances of a Duterte arrest if the ICC issues an arrest warrant?

DE LIMA: I could see that that's one of the reasons why nagwawala na si Duterte. Out and out na 'yung antagonism niya kay President Marcos because I think he suspects that BBM and his administration are really cooperating with the ICC. Maybe not yet in the full extent of the full idea of cooperation. Maybe he felt that ultimately the president would order the enforcement of the arrest. It's a matter of political will actually on the part of BBM if he's going to do that. Either he would not meddle with the ICC in enforcing the warrant of arrest or give orders to appropriate authorities like the PNP to cooperate, and to serve the warrant of arrest.

So you are correct that it does not necessarily mean that when a warrant of arrest, an international warrant of arrest will be served right away. But you know, the mere issuance of warrant of arrest would have a so big an impact, if that happens. It's a huge impact on our well-being as a society. That here finally, justice is coming for the victims of the drug war killings.

Now, the enforcement of the warrant of arrest is another matter. But it will limit the movements of Duterte. Because he cannot just go anywhere, especially in the state parties of the Rome Statute. There are 123 state parties to the Rome Statute.

So any of those countries, if he goes there would, are actually obliged to enforce the warrant of arrest. The same thing with us. We are obliged to serve the warrant of arrest. Even if we are no longer a member of the ICC or a state party to the Rome Statute because of the withdrawal in 2018 by Duterte from it.

But we're still under obligation to cooperate for the investigation on crimes that happened at the time that we were still a member state. And that was in 2011 when we acceded to the Rome Statute up to 2019 when the withdrawal became effective. That's clear in the Rome Statute. Notwithstanding the pronouncements that we cannot cooperate because ICC no longer has jurisdiction. That's not accurate.

We are still obliged to cooperate in the investigation over crimes against humanity that happened during the time that we were still a member state.

HOWIE: Attorney de Lima, I want to wrap up by asking you because you've served in government for a long time under different administrations. You were chair of the Commission on Human Rights, you were secretary of justice, you were a senator.

How do you view how our culture and society have changed over that period of time, especially in the context of ito ngang ano, this seemingly widespread acceptance of extrajudicial killings during the time of President Duterte. People were actually applauding, they were cheering on these killings which shocked certain people, a lot of people also.

But there were a lot of people who felt it was the right thing to do. Parang nagkaroon ng something cultural was also going on. You've had a chance to kind of reflect on all of this, being in prison for a long time and being a victim yourself. Any thoughts you want to share about what is happening to our society? Can we recover from that? Can it change for the better?

DE LIMA: It's really frustrating and disappointing that we had that culture under Duterte. Acceptance of the wrong things. As if the Filipino were placed under the spell of this demagogue that all of a sudden it was all right to see killings. Just that. Unjust and extrajudicial killings.

Now, we have to put blame on the Frankenstein that is the social media. The social media is the culprit in all of this aside from Duterte himself who exploited certain situations in our country. He was speaking the language of the masses who would enjoy his toxic language. So it was disappointing and frustrating.

But again, just like my attitude towards the justice system, I never lost faith in the Filipino people. Because inherently they know what is right, what is wrong. It's just that certain circumstances in the political milieu would compel them to go by the wrong side. Because they were manipulated. People who were so expert in manipulating the mindset and the attitude of the masses.

So they were also victims of all of this. So I never lost faith in the Filipino people no matter how frustrating it was.

HOWIE: Well on that hopeful note, Attorney de Lima, we want to thank you and wish you much luck in your future missions. Thank you for sharing and for standing up for principle. Former senator and prisoner of conscience, Leila de Lima and now a free woman, mabuhay po kayo at maraming maraming salamat po.

DE LIMA: Maraming salamat, Howie. It's been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you.