Acclaimed author Patricia Evangelista on being a 'trauma journalist' (Part 2)

In the second part of their conversation, Patricia Evangelista discusses with Howie a thought-provoking aspect of her approach unpacking the peculiar language used in the Philippines to cloak, justify and record violence by the state, from the origins of "salvage" to mean extrajudicial killing to the refrain of "nanlaban" (resisting arrest) to the clinical coldness of absurdly fantastical police reports.

Evangelista does not come out of nowhere. Her book is part autobiographical, including her wunderkind years when she became a teenage public speaking world champion. She talks about her famous grandfather, the journalist Mario Chanco, and the big reveal she makes about him in the book; and her turning point when she stopped being a carefree youth and began to care about the forced disappearances of other youths.

She offers advice for would-be book writers ("if you're going to sit with a story for four or five years, you better very much care about it."), and for those who want to follow her path as a "trauma journalist."

When interviewing victims, she instructs, "try to make it as easy as possible. We ask for facts, not for feelings. Hindi 'yung 'anong pakiramdam mo?'... I try to be as respectful as possible. It doesn't mean I'm always successful. But I try."

Please be advised that this conversation contains sensitive content and some profanity.

Part 1 here.

HOWIE: Magandang araw, podmates! We're back with trauma journalist Patricia Evangelista, author of the acclaimed book Some People Need Killing: A Memoir of Murder in My Country.

So much of the book was about language nga. I mean, it was actually very thought-provoking. Every time you kind of unpack the use of certain words and then, the way these words, you had to translate these into English, 'yung mga Tagalog words like "nanlaban".

Dati ang "laban" used to be kind of a very positive word. And then 'yung mga word like "encounter" na it's kind of a neutral, generic word for most English speakers. Pero sa atin, it connotes violence, neutralize, consummation, salvage.

Ano 'yung reaction ng mga audience mo riyan with our use of these English words as euphemisms for terrible things?

PATRICIA: I don't know how to answer that question in that they do ask about particular words. And I think the general thesis naman kasi is that not only does reality change language, language does change reality, stories change realities. And the Philippines is not very particular, it's not special in that, in that all over the world, it takes a story to drive missiles, to drive armies, to drive hate, as well as all the grand things as well. So I think it's taken as just another example on how language drives reality. And then, they'll ask me to tell the story. And then I'll tell the story. And then it's a gift to language nerds.

I'm one and a number of people are. So it's interesting for me to unpack it. But at the same time, it's also because I did this for a long time. It's both the privilege and the burden of it. And that once you see the universe through stories and through language, you can't unsee it. So that's all I'm seeing now.

HOWIE: Well, one of the reasons why I ask is because we're different from other countries in that our official language is English na hindi naman 'yun mother tongue ng maraming Pilipino, especially the victims and their families. You spoke to them, obviously, not in English. But much of your unpacking was English.

Itong police reports. It was actually funny, 'yung ibang analysis mo roon. That's why I ask how native English speakers, let's say in the US were reacting to the way we use English and whether they found that strange or the fact that there's this kind of huge barrier between the official world in the Philippines and then the real world of ordinary people, ordinary victims.

'Yung mga pamilya ng mga biktima, I mean, naintindihan ba nila itong... I mean, it's even hard for us to understand the police reports, 'no? Pero sila mismo, 'yung mga words like "consummation", 'di ba, hindi naman ---

PATRICIA: I think those police reports are odd. I think it was useful to me in that hindi ko na kailangan i-translate. It's in the original English. So things like, after the smoke of gunfire disappeared, police discovered men.

HOWIE: Subsided---

PATRICIA: Subsided. After the smoke of gunfire subsided, police discovered two men, lifeless on the ground. Parang paano ka magkakaroon ng smoke of gunfire? Apat lang 'yung putok ng baril, dalawa 'yung patay sa sahig, hindi mo nakita na may katawan at may kaharap ka?

So it is the use of language and metaphor that I find very interesting. And you're right. I assume it is difficult for families to parse this. It's difficult for me to parse it. Ano ibig sabihin ng "consummation", "neutralization", "encounter"? And it took me three years to parse through it.

Pero dahil it's daily use, it's come to represent many things. "In-encounter namin." Ibig sabihin, pinatay namin pero nanlaban. So maraming utilization diyan.

HOWIE: Yeah. You know, you've taken a unique journey as a journalist kasi a lot of journalists, they would just move on. After the drug war, "Okay, tapos na 'yun." I mean, it's a new, it's a new administration. You decided to develop your reportage into a book. Bihira 'yan.

PATRICIA: I don't think I'm unique in that sense. In that I stayed with the story, that I didn't move on. There are many of us who cover the drug war, who never moved on, who probably never will. People like me, who would, you know, the stories live in my head.

And some of them have become more active in helping families. And some of them continue to document. I stopped documenting night by night. And feeling ko misnomer, e, that I was on the street all the time. I wasn't on the street all the time. There were people who were every night.

For me, I would go maybe two, three nights, and discover, "Wait. Kailangan kong sundan itong isa." And then, tuloy-tuloy na. Habulin ko 'yung istorya. Mawawala ako sa night shift kasi may kasama akong pamilya.

And then, may mga linggo na nakaupo lang ako na trying to figure out how to write the thing. You know, even in the daily grind of the news, you have to be able to get the right language. And there are many more journalists who took it night by night, every night. And they haven't moved on. So, I am in no way going to say I'm unique in this. It's just that I'm a writer. This is where we go. We go to a book.

HOWIE: What other subjects out there cry out for a book? Para sa mga journalist-writer na nakikinig sa 'yo, nai-inspire sa 'yo, what should we be writing about?

PATRICIA: I think what is more relevant is what do they want to write about? A book is a long, brutal, painful process. And the payoff is very little. I mean, it's a hit or miss, e. But I think what is more relevant is what can't they let go of.

'Yun 'yung phrasing mo rin kanina, e. 'Yung hindi mo mapakawalan, 'di ba, na tuloy-tuloy siya. If you're going to sit with a story for four or five years, you better very much care about it. So this story I cared very much about. I could live with it, eat with it, sleep with it because it was so important to me.

So if anyone wanted to write a book, it has to be that. At least when it's a reportorial journalistic book, it has to be something na kahit ayaw mo na, itutuloy mo. It's bigger than me. It's bigger than any of us. And if anyone else wants to do another book on the drug war, that would be fantastic as well.

I did a very small fraction of what happened. And the lens I took, the lens of language, is not the only lens. And there has to be much more. So sana marami pa. Pero kung may mga naiisip na mga bata na gustong magsulat ng libro for fame and glory, you don't get very much of that. You get a lot of hellfire. And the price you pay is very high.

So I wouldn't recommend it if it's just for the sake of possibly getting a name somewhere. I would recommend it if something's very important to you.

HOWIE: Good point. So you've called yourself a trauma journalist. Actually, you're the first person I've met who has called herself that. And I looked it up. There's even a traumajournalism.org. It's basically professional journalists who cover crime, conflict, and catastrophe. Literative pa. When did you start calling yourself that?

PATRICIA: It might have been 2015. I was a fellow of the Dart Center for Trauma and Journalism. It was very specific. And that was when I understood even just the concept of trauma. I've been doing this a long time, but I didn't understand what trauma-informed reporting was, what trauma means in the context of what we do na hindi naman kailangan ng massacre diyan, e. Hindi kailangan ng casualty counts.

PATRICIA: Trauma can be anything, anything out of the ordinary that shocks a person. So 'pag namatayan ka, 'pag nabangga 'yung kotse, 'pag nagkaaksidente, anything, any one of these many, many events can be traumatic. And there is a manner of covering it, of covering people in the aftermath of that, that is recommended for journalists.

Kasi hindi ko talaga alam kung ano 'yung beat ko, e. All the way to 2015, I didn't understand my beat. All I knew was that I had the compulsion to go to places where, I guess, terrible things had happened. And my fixation was always the survivors. And I understood, siguro around that time, even before I got the name, that I went to places like this.

Because there are places that require a reckoning, kailangan ng record in the future. Also because the stories are everywhere in places like that. So I'm sure you have the same compulsion. Many, many people do. So when Dart explained what it was, I understood that I, like many war correspondents or disaster reporters, or even crime beat reporters, are trauma journalists.

HOWIE: Kasi, 'di ba, may tradition naman sa ating propesyon. Kailangan maging objective, and you need to be distant from what you're covering in a way. I mean, there's a certain detachment. But doon sa nabasa ko, you're right. Kasi may trauma-informed reporting. Sa Nieman [Foundation for Journalism], there was a Nieman paper on this. Nakalagay, "Trauma-informed reporting recognizes what the person being interviewed has experienced, how it could be affecting them currently, and how the interview process could burden them further."

So ang dami mong na-interview na biktima para dito sa libro and for your reporting on the drug war. And you mentioned earlier, trauma-informed reporting is a manner of interacting with your subjects. I mean, for those listening and those in our profession or want to do this kind of reporting in the right way, what is this manner that you're talking about?

PATRICIA: I think the first step to that is understanding how trauma impacts people, 'di ba? So walking into the aftermath of anything, a crime scene, a disaster, a car accident, you first have to understand that people do not react to trauma the same way. 'Yung iba, iiyak. 'Yung iba, titili. 'Yung iba, uupo sa kanto at titingin sa wala. 'Yung iba, normal, akala mo walang nangyari kasi nag-a-absorb pa sila.

So none of these presumes that these people are not traumatized. So accept kaagad na iba-iba ang reaksyon. So hindi puwede isulat 'yung news story na, "Ay hindi siya umiyak. So siguro hindi siya nasaktan." Walang ganu'n.

Pangalawa, you understand na bumaligtad 'yung mundo nila all of a sudden. And that their reactions might reflect that. So dahil bumaligtad 'yung mundo, ikaw 'yung humarap sa kanila, they might cast you into whatever role they need at the moment. Whether savior, whether messiah, whether therapist, kaibigan, simbahan, may kailangan sila sa 'yo, e. Kasi may kailangan sila. It's just that you happen to be there.

So you have to also be careful about the promises you make. You don't say, "'Pag kinuwento mo 'yung istorya sa akin, mag-iiba 'yung buhay mo. Or may darating na suporta. Or magkakaroon ng hustisya." Kasi wala naman sa ating makakapangako nu'n, e.

Puwede mo sabihin, "Ikukuwento ko. Tapos tingnan natin mangyayari. Bigay mo sa akin number mo. Kung may mag-contact, ibibigay ko sa 'yo." Pero your only job is to tell the story the best way you can and negotiate those expectations.

The third, mayroon kang power differential lagi na 'pag may ini-interview ka na pulis o senador o presidente, alam nilang reporter ka, e. So banggaan kayo, okay lang 'yan, 'di ba? 'Pag sinabi mo on the record, tapos na. Pumapalo 'yung camera, get nila 'yun.

A person in the aftermath of trauma, in the first place, might not know that. The rules are different for them. Kasi it might be they've never been interviewed before. So kailangan mong i-explain lahat 'yun para ma-get nila na hindi enough na, "Ate, tatanungin kita ng mga bagay." Kailangan mo i-explain, ire-record mo. Kailangan mo i-explain baka umere ito or baka lumabas sa libro. All of these things. So consent is very important in the aftermath of trauma.

And the last thing, and I think a lot of us know this already, that it is very difficult to ask someone to articulate how they feel in the aftermath of trauma. It's not just even articulating it. It's just, ang insulto rin naman kasi. In that, namatayan ka at 'yung katawan, may magsasaksak ng mikropono sa mukha mo, "Ma'am, anong pakiramdam n'yo?" Hala, 'di ba? Ano 'yun?

So I think the best rule din naman is kung nangyari sa 'yo, anong gusto mong pagtrato? So dahil we're in a very gray area of, may kailangan tayo sa kanila and sometimes it's not a good thing asking them for a story, we respect the consent. We try to make it as easy as possible. And we ask for facts, not for feelings. Hindi 'yung, "Ano pakiramdam mo?"

Kung gusto mo talaga malaman, "Ano po 'yung tumatakbo sa isip n'yo nu'ng panahon na nakita n'yo 'yung katawan?" That is not a feeling. That is a fact. "What did you feel?"

So that's generally what I do. I build the whole scene based on an interview. And then I ask, I get more interviews and more interviews and more interviews. I try to be as respectful as possible. It doesn't mean I'm successful. But I try.

HOWIE: That's very instructive and wise and a good point to end on. So magpapaalam na kami, Pat. Thank you for your time and thank you especially for writing this book. Patricia Evangelista, author of the acclaimed new book, Some People Need Killing: A Memoir of Murder in My Country. Mabuhay ka!

PATRICIA: Maraming salamat.